Life at Brodies: Being a private client lawyer

00:00:05 David Lee, Host

Hello and welcome to Podcasts by Brodies. My name is David Lee and in this series ‘Life at Brodies’ we get to know the people at Scotland's largest law firm as they share their personal experiences and perspectives about working at Brodies.

Today, I'm delighted to welcome two Brodies colleagues to share some of those personal experiences about working in the private client team, one of the busiest teams at Brodies. Welcome to Nikki Neal, a senior associate and to solicitor Iona Clark to the podcast today.

Iona, I will start with you. You qualified last year as a solicitor, can you tell me a little bit about life before Brodies? Where are you from and when did you first think I want to be a lawyer?

00:00:52 Iona Clark, Solicitor

I'm from a small village in the Scottish Borders. I did my LLB and my diploma at the University of Edinburgh and I secured my traineeship with Brodies in Autumn 2020. I don't think there was ever really a light bulb moment, to be honest, where I realised I wanted to be a lawyer. To be totally honest, when I applied to study law, I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to do, but I thought a law degree would open up to a lot of potential opportunities.

So, I just thought it could be a good option to keep my options open and I also thought I would enjoy the academic side of law because I love a challenge and deciding to be a lawyer was something that happened progressively over time and I knew I wanted to work with people, assist people at difficult times in their lives and be able to build trusted relationships so a legal career just seemed like it would be a good fit for me and that was confirmed when I started my legal career at Brodies.

00:02:04 David Lee, Host

Thanks very much Iona, and Nikki, you've been at Brodies a little bit longer. How long have you been with Brodies now and what about yourself? Did you always want to be a lawyer as you were growing up coming towards the end of school?

00:02:18 Nikki Neal, Senior Associate

I joined Brodies 2011 actually, so that's time has really flown. I trained with another firm in Edinburgh and then I moved to Brodies as a newly qualified solicitor and I never looked back. Did I always know I wanted to be a lawyer? I think probably quite similar to Iona. I don't think I was ever that clear that that was the career that I absolutely wanted to follow. I actually started off doing history and then converted to law and I suppose at that point in my university career, I had decided that I did want to do law really for the same reasons as Iona. I think then when I went on to do my traineeship, that confirmed to me that a legal career was the right choice for me.

00:03:19 David Lee, Host

What was it when you moved to Brodies, Nikki, what attracted you to Brodies as a firm? Had you been a private client lawyer? What is it about private client law that attracted you?

00:03:33 Nikki Neal, Senior Associate

Well, I think Brodies as a firm, it's always been the leading law firm in Scotland and it's always had such a sterling reputation for the quality of legal advice. For me personally, thinking ahead to my career and my career progression and what do I want to get out of my career as a lawyer, working with experts and leaders in their field was up there for me as being really important and I knew that I would get exposure to that at Brodies. With that comes brilliant quality and variety of work as well, so that was I think another reason. I think also as well, it's a full-service firm and for me as a lawyer at the outset of my career, I may not have placed as much emphasis on that as I do now. But now as a lawyer who has practiced for a number of years, it's just so beneficial to work within a full-service law firm. I think that was probably what drew me to Brodies initially.

In terms of private client, when I joined Brodies, I had a dual role which was split between the family team, so dealing with separation and divorce and everything that comes with that and then the private client team so doing what I do now wills, executries, estate planning and I was doing a bit of both actually and that carried on for probably about 18 months after I joined Brodies and I did really enjoy the family work, but I ultimately knew that I wanted to specialise solely in private client work. The work really interests me. I find it really intellectually stimulating and challenging and quite often there are changes in the law and it just keeps you on your toes a bit. It’s also the people side of things as well, as Iona said, you're working with clients from all walks of life every single day. I really enjoy that aspect of the job.

00:06:07 David Lee, Host

Thanks very much Nikki. We'll talk a little bit more later about that variety and also the kind of quality of the work you do. Iona, what attracted you to come to Brodies? Obviously it is Scotland's largest law firm, that's quite an attraction in itself and some of the things that Nikki has described, but also tell us a little bit about your traineeship, you went through the different seats, the different areas of law as a trainee, which ones did you do? Why did you settle eventually on private client law?

00:06:40 Iona Clark, Solicitor

I was attracted to Brodies for much same reasons as Nikki, being a full-service law firm and having the opportunity to work with some of the best lawyers in Scotland was the immediate attraction for me. I wanted to keep an open mind about what I wanted to do in terms of practice area and being in a full-service just meant that I would have the opportunity to work with lawyers in a variety of different practice areas. Brodies' traineeship itself is structured with three eight-month seats and my first seat was in the rural business and natural capital team, which was the land and rural business team at the time. I had the opportunity to work on a range of different property transactions, which was good to get exposure to the transactional side of law. I joined the private client team as a trainee in April 2023 for my second seat and basically just never left. I stayed in the team for two seats, so 16 months in total of my traineeship, which effectively just meant that I had a private client focused traineeship and I just I felt very lucky that the flexibility offered at Brodies meant that I had the opportunity to be able to do that when private client was something that was really interested in at university and during my diploma as well. So yeah, I was really grateful that I was supported to be able to do that.

As for why I chose to settle on the private client team, I really enjoyed the direct client contact of this area of law. Having regular meetings, calls, emails with clients is great for being able to develop rapport and a good working relationship with them and also the variety of the work and the technical nature of the job as Nikki mentioned are some of the other benefits of private client work. No two days are the same, I know it's such a cliche, but you never know what you're coming into, and you can be involved in a range of different aspects of work and it's really great to be able to get involved in complex cases. So, it's something that I really enjoy about my job.

00:09:07 David Lee, Host

Coming back to you Nikki, what Iona just said there, no two days are the same. It is a cliche, but it's true at the same time. So I mean, is it possible to just give us a flavour of a typical “kind of day” for a private client lawyer? What kind of areas of the law do you help clients with? There is a real variety and a real breath to it.

00:09:31 Nikki Neal, Senior Associate

For sure, I mean, just today alone, I've had a really busy morning of client meetings, had a trustee meeting today. We deal with the administration of a lot of trusts and advise clients on setting up trusts as part of estate planning strategies. Today was a meeting for a high value trust and it was meeting with the investment managers and that was quickly followed by another meeting afterwards where there is some succession planning involving partnerships and trusts that will be assisting clients with. So, it is so varied. I think the sort of traditional estate planning, wills, incapacity work and advising clients on that makes up a really big part of what we do. But with that often comes, so many other issues, and we'll often find ourselves working with colleagues and other practice areas within the firm where that's really where the benefit of working for a full-service law firm comes into its own.

I also deal with a lot of contentious private clients matters so I collaborate quite frequently with our colleagues in the dispute resolution team dealing with matters such as challenging wills, Scotland's forced heirship rules, and there can often be disputes regarding those, and we also deal with a lot of executries, a lot of succession planning for high net worth and ultra-high net worth individuals. It is just so varied, I don't think I could quite possibly summarise even in half an hour what we're involved in and Iona is right, no two days are the same and I personally I love that aspect of my job.

00:11:57 David Lee, Host

How big is the private client team at Brodies, Nikki? You've already touched on that, you cover such a wide range of work, you are crossing over with other departments. So how big is the private client? Have you got good working relationships across the firm as well with other departments?

00:12:15 Nikki Neal, Senior Associate

Yes, the private client team, I could be wrong, but I feel that if we are not the largest, we are definitely one of the largest private client teams in Scotland. The personal and family practice area which we are part of on the personal side and our family colleagues, they deal with divorce, separation and all associated matters. The personal and family practise area is 61 lawyers now, so that's excluding trainees and support staff. Of that I think the personal side of the practice area comprises 42 lawyers. So it's great. We are extremely well resourced across the various geographical locations where we've got offices and it's been absolutely brilliant in the time that I've been at Brodies just to see the practice area growing so quickly and I think it's great for young lawyers in particular to see that investment that's being made within the practice area.

In terms of how often we collaborate and work with other teams within the firm, I think I touched on that briefly already and the answer is very frequently. Whether it's our tax team that sits within the personal and family team and comprises a number of excellent accountants or property colleagues, we work a lot with our corporate colleagues as well on setting up structures like family investment companies, which we do a lot of that for high net worth and ultra-high net worth clients. As I mentioned before as well, I work quite closely with the dispute resolution team as well.

00:14:17 David Lee, Host

Through your experience, Nikki, what do you think are the most important qualities for that make a good private client lawyer?

00:14:27 Nikki Neal, Senior Associate

Well, I think being personable is probably up there for me. I think that as a private client lawyer, you are undoubtedly going to be dealing with people a lot. As Iona touched on earlier, quite often you will be meeting existing clients or new clients that are at a really difficult time in their life, they may have just lost a loved one or, you know ultimately, I mean, at the end of the day, if somebody is coming to get legal advice there's a reason for it and it's probably not going to be a hugely positive reason. Unless of course it's succession planning. Quite often we'll be meeting them and it will be a difficult time. So, I think having that ability to be empathetic and professional and just enjoying working with people and being a people person is definitely a really important skill to have, not just as a private client lawyer but it is for any lawyer.

Also, being able to stay calm in a stressful situation or just where you are juggling lots of different things you might have come in and you've got a plan for the day and you know it just doesn't always go to plan. Having that ability to prioritise and also working in a team as well, I think anybody within Brodies would always take the view that we may be the individual lawyer and point of contact for clients, but we don't do anything on our own. We're always working as a team, whether it's within our individual teams or working with other teams within the firm. So, I think that teamwork skill is really important as well.

00:16:38 David Lee, Host

What have you learned, Iona, in your time with the private client team about those kind of qualities that you need from the more experienced lawyers at Brodies?

00:16:48 Iona Clark, Solicitor

Just to follow on from what Nikki said, it's really important to be personable and be empathetic, be able to listen. We regularly deal with clients that are at a difficult point in their life. As Nikki said, you know, it might be that they've lost a loved one recently or they might just be a particularly vulnerable client and I've really learned from more senior members of the team, how they approach that and demonstrate that they really care and they show that empathy and sometimes clients will come to us with things that have nothing to do with law just because it's something that they might be really worried about and just would like someone to listen.

I think I've experienced over the past couple of years how important it is to ensure that they feel listened to regardless of what it is and even if it's ultimately not something that we're going to be able to help them with. I think more experienced members of the team have demonstrated how you handle those things and it's still something to show that you care and you're willing to listen to those worries and concerns.

00:18:09 David Lee, Host

You must have times where, as you say, clients are at difficult points in their life, sometimes clients will be quite emotional, they'll be maybe quite challenging, how do you step back if somebody is being really challenging and difficult or getting really emotional?

00:18:32 Iona Clark, Solicitor

I think just drawing on experience in the team and looking to other people in the team for support is really helpful when you’re dealing with a client that's struggling and sometimes naturally that's going to come out when you're meeting with them or corresponding with them or whatever it is. Nikki in particular has loads of experience of dealing with more contentious matters and it's something that I would discuss with colleagues. As Nikki said, we really work as a team like you're never left to deal with something on your own and there's always someone there that can support you and you can chat to them if there's something particularly difficult or challenging that that's come across your desk where you don't know how to approach something that you've never come across before and I think it's just really important to stay calm, as Nikki said, and just work through it as part of a team.

00:19:34 David Lee, Host

What is it you enjoy most, Iona? What would you say is your favourite thing about being a private client lawyer and is there a particular highlight that you would say has been the something that really stands out in your career so far?

00:19:48 Iona Clark, Solicitor

I feel like a bit of a stuck record here, but I think the direct client contact is probably the thing that I enjoy the most and it's what made me want to be a private client lawyer. The people really do make the job and it means I have the opportunity to really get to know clients, their circumstances, what their goals and wishes are for the future. You get to work with people from all walks of life, from those new to wealth, people that are trying to pass wealth down the generations, it's really varied and it's great just to be able to work through the different circumstances and try and work out a solution that that will work best for them and their families and it‘s also great just to be able to go out and visit clients at home, sometimes get a cup of tea and a biscuit and it's those things that really make the job that I really, really love.

In terms of a career highlight, aside from just generally being able to work with the people, I had the opportunity to manage quite a complex will structure setup for a family and there was connections to another jurisdiction outside the UK and I managed the day-to-day of that matter from start to finish and it was really great to be able to get to the finish line. I found it so rewarding and to be able to support the client throughout that process was something that I was really grateful to have the opportunity to do and it was a really great experience, so I just generally think that it was so rewarding because being the point of contact for clients was great and I really enjoyed it and it made me feel like I was making a difference to their plans for the future and helping them navigate some difficult circumstances.

00:21:49 David Lee, Host

Nikki, you've talked quite a bit already about what you what you like about the job and I just wonder whether or not even when you've been in the job for a longer period of time than Iona, the variety means there's always something new, there's always something different coming along that challenges you, do you enjoy that part of the job? What would you say has been your own career highlight?

00:22:16 Nikki Neal, Senior Associate

So, firstly on the variety, notwithstanding that I've been practicing as a lawyer since 2011, there are still things that come on my desk for the first time that and I think that is probably one of the best things about working at Brodies. We do also get quite a lot of referral work from other firms and opinion work and perhaps there are other firms that they don't internally have the expertise or resource to be able to advise on some more complex aspects of specific transactions and we've got great relationships with firms who will come to us for opinion work, etc., and because of that you do come across some really niche legal points and then you've also got the added point of the law, which, particularly in the last few years, has evolved quite a bit, and there have been changes to succession law. Not as significant as we had been led to believe, but still some changes there and with the Autumn UK Budget last year that introduced a huge number of changes to inheritance tax that are going to impact so many of our clients. So getting to grips with those changes I find really interesting, and it keeps you on your toes and it really is one of the aspects of my job that I enjoy the most. The fact that it is an area of law that is always evolving and there are so many changes that we have to stay abreast of.

In terms of my career highlight probably not a great answer, but I would probably point to promotions that I've had internally within the firm, but also the timing of both promotions to associate and then senior associate, they both took place almost immediately after I came back from two maternity leaves. So, I went through the promotion process when I was on maternity leave and then and was promoted to associate and then latterly senior associate following my return and I think for me that was just a real career highlight and also affirms to me that I can be a mum and a good lawyer and that I'm valued in both roles.

00:25:15 David Lee, Host

That's great to hear Nikki. Iona, as some people looking in from the outside Brodies, it's a firm that's constantly growing, as I say, is the largest indigenous law firm in Scotland and some people might think it's going to be a tough place to work, there is high expectations, it’s Brodies, it's all work and no play, is that true? Or is there a good social side at Brodies too?

00:25:41 Iona Clark, Solicitor

It's definitely not all work and no play. Anyone who knows me knows that it cannot just be all work. I really value a good work life balance, it's something that's really important me and I know it's important to other people in the firm as well.

In our team there's never an expectation to work super late to get something done, albeit you know sometimes depending on client demands, it might be something you feel like you need to do just to get the work done, but there is definitely a good social side to work in Brodies. We regularly arrange things in our team, and it might be an arranged event like mini golf, which we did last year or just something casual after work. I think it's something that's really important and definitely something that I really value about working at Brodies.

00:26:36 David Lee, Host

Nikki, you just talked about your two promotions, what’s your ambition looking forward for the rest of your legal career?

00:26:46 Nikki Neal, Senior Associate

That’s a good question. I think right now I'm not aspiring to partnership and I think ultimately for me that's a positive thing insofar as the firm is so supportive of whatever your individual career aspirations are and there are alternatives to partnership.

There's role of legal director, which in the foreseeable future I expect that is probably going to be the next step for me in in terms of applying to become a legal director but I'm also a mum as well and I think that I do genuinely feel really supported by the firm in terms of being able to balance my job with my home life. At this particular moment in time, just with my children being the ages that they are, as I say, immediate career progression isn't on the immediate horizon, but I know that if and when the time comes that I will be supported with that and I feel really grateful to have that support.

00:28:17 David Lee, Host

At the risk of constantly making you sound like a veteran, which I don't mean to Nikki, how would you advise younger solicitors like owner in terms of what the opportunities are ahead? Not “this is what you should do” but about seizing opportunities and the opportunities that exist within the private client team and Brodies broadly.

00:28:42 Nikki Neal, Senior Associate

I always say this actually to new trainees that join the team as well that you've got just such a great opportunity here to take advantage of so much knowledge and expertise around you and that's just on the legal side. But as a firm of this size, we are supported by so many other colleagues such as IT colleagues, mail room, print room, there are so many opportunities and what I would probably say is that it is up to you whether or not you take advantage of those opportunities, but if you decide that you do want to, then you will absolutely be supported with your career progression, whatever that looks like to you.

I think that that is something that I've always really admired about the firm and particularly our practice area and I'm sure it's the same for other practice areas that if you go to your line manager with an idea for a business development event or a blog or you are wanting to progress and focus on promotion, then you will get that support more often than not. In a nutshell, my advice to a younger solicitor would really be to just take advantage of everything and everyone around you and if you are asked to get involved with something, then say yes, because more often than not you're going to learn some really invaluable skills from it as well that will serve you really well in your future career.

00:30:48 David Lee, Host

Thanks very much Nikki. Finally, Iona, as somebody who's relatively new to the profession and to Brodies, what are your ambitions? What do you look forward to the most in your future legal career?

00:31:02 Iona Clark, Solicitor

I think immediate ambitions, you know, taking on board what Nikki has said, is to draw on the knowledge and experience of my colleagues and looking ahead. I suppose the next step for me would be a promotion to senior solicitor and there are really good opportunities for internal growth in the private client team. As Nikki said, there's a clear progression path generally at Brodies for helping to make that happen and their support offered by senior members of the team here too. I think one of the things that I'm looking forward to the most is maybe taking on a mentoring role for more junior members of the team in future to support their own development and hopefully I'll be able to pass on some of the really valuable feedback and skills and advice that I've learned and gained from other members of the team.

00:32:06 David Lee, Host

Thanks very much, Iona.

Thank you to Iona and thanks to Nikki for not only sharing their experiences, but sharing what is clearly a real passion for what they do, a real passion for private client law and also hearing how important it is to be part of that team, that sense of working together across the private client team and in the wider firm as well.

Wherever you are in your career, you can find out more about taking the next step at Brodies by visiting brodies.com/careers. This has been an episode of Podcasts by Brodies, where some of the country's leading lawyers and special guests share their Enlightened Thinking about a range of issues and developments in the legal sector and what they mean for organisations, businesses and individuals across the UK's economy and wider society.

If you'd like to hear more, you can subscribe to Podcasts by Brodies on all your favourite podcast platforms. And if you want to know more about the firm in general, go to brodies.com.