Life at Brodies: application and interview process for trainee lawyers

00:00:05 David Lee, Host

Hello and welcome to Podcasts by Brodies. My name is David Lee and this episode is part of the series Life at Brodies where you can get to know Brodies colleagues as they share their perspectives and personal experiences of working at Scotland's largest law firm. I'm delighted to welcome graduate engagement manager, Wendy Murphy, to talk about the application and interview process for recruiting trainee lawyers at Brodies. Welcome, Wendy.

00:00:36 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

Hi David. Thank you.

00:00:38 David Lee, Host

And first, Wendy, tell us about yourself, how long have you been at Brodies and what does your role involve?

00:00:46 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

So, I am just coming up for my 13th year anniversary with the firm, so I have been around for quite some time in my role as graduate engagement manager. So, I look after all things early years related so that's our schools programs, our graduate recruitment programs and then ultimately looking after our trainees as they come through their traineeship with us.

00:01:12 David Lee, Host

Thanks very much. Tell us a little bit about the traineeships, how does the process work? When do you typically recruit trainees and when do they tend to start work with Brodies?

00:01:24 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

Recruitment is, as always with legal, is done so far in advance. So, we are recruiting a block of trainees about two years in advance of them starting with us. That intake of trainees is split through two different recruitment methods, so the first would be through our summer placement programme, so roughly about 50% of our training intake will come from that process. You would apply in a minimum of third year of your LLB, you come in and spend three weeks with us as an intern and you take the trainee assessments while you're with us. So, returning to fourth year, ideally with a traineeship underneath your belt, is the dream. If you're not successful through a summer placement or you're unable to complete a summer placement, then you could apply directly to us and again, that would be at the end of the summer of third year as a minimum. If you're successful through that route, you'll come in and spend a day with us at an assessment centre and potentially be offered a traineeship on the back of that as well.

00:02:30 David Lee, Host

For those who don't know much about the process of traineeship in the legal sector, Wendy, how long does the traineeship last and how is it divided up? How many different practice areas would each trainee work in and how long does each of those areas last?

00:02:48 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

So, the traineeship itself lasts for two years. We are slightly different from the normal model, or the more traditional model of six-month placement. Typically in a lot of firms you will do four six month seats with the firm. Ours are slightly longer than that, which allows us to operate a three eight month seat model. Trainees are with their teams for an extra couple of months during the time that they spend with them. It's worked really well for us, it's been the operating model since I started with the firm over 13 years ago. It allows the trainees to spend a little bit more time within each seat, get a bit more experience and to grow in confidence and to get involved in more complex work while they're there. So yeah, slightly different from the norm, but we highly recommend it.

00:03:43 David Lee, Host

How important is it for trainees to have that broad base of working in three different areas of the firm for that chunky period of eight months before they make the decision where they are going to specialise and which area of the law they are going to focus on?

00:04:03 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

It absolutely is critical. What you find often is that trainees have a very sure idea of where they think they're going to qualify into before they start with us. Even coming straight in as a first day trainee they're convinced that they know where they're going to qualify but that journey of a traineeship allows you to go and practice areas, academic areas that you've enjoyed while you've studied sometimes will not transfer directly to the practical and vice versa. Things that you've not enjoyed at university suddenly come to life as you're doing them practically and just about always trainees qualify into areas that they probably were not expecting to. There's a lot of a lot of areas, a lot of teams that you can join as a trainee that you'll have no experience of through your academic studies. For instance, contentious construction might be something that you haven't touched at all through your university years and suddenly you have got this opportunity and experience to try something completely different so it's important. I would also say that all the seats add something to your skill set. So, you will be developing different skills within these different areas and ultimately what we want at the end of the day is to have given you a nice, rounded experience where you've tried different things, developed a different skill set, it's built on that. Ultimately, you'll be a better lawyer because of that journey.

00:05:35 David Lee, Host

How does it balance out, Wendy, do you sometimes get a surfeit of young lawyers who do want to go into a particular area, or does it all work out in the end? Does everyone manage to end up broadly speaking where they're happy to work?

00:05:51 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

Yeah, we're a full-service law firm. So, we offer a lot of everything. Sometimes there's a little bit of a clash where you've got a couple of trainees who are desperate to qualify in a particular area and we maybe just don't quite have the number of jobs that would mean that we can accommodate everybody. Generally, it does work out. Surprisingly, it usually works out where we have a nice spread of interest in lots of different areas of the business and the end goal is to try and make sure that everybody has somewhat got what they're looking for at the end of the traineeship in terms of qualification.

00:06:29 David Lee, Host

Brodies is, as we've said, the largest law firm in Scotland by quite some distance now and continues to grow. I'm sure it can be a little bit daunting for some of the trainees coming into such a large firm. So, what kind of support do you give to the trainees coming to Brodies? Do they get mentors? Do they get any specific support to help them through that traineeship period?

00:06:57 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

Yeah, it's vital that support is in place. That's fundamentally what makes the difference, and we just load up loads of support from day one. I often wonder how the trainees ever get any work done with so many people checking in on them so regularly. On a on a day-to-day basis, they are allocated a mentor and that will be the person that they will turn to, the colleague that they will turn to for all of their everyday support. So, they will sit within the team that they're joining. They will have lots of catch ups with them. They'll be responsible for helping them to build a workload to make sure that workload is the right mix of work, the right variety and to answer all the everyday questions that that they have.

We also allocate a buddy, so that's a fellow trainee. That'll be somebody in second year as you join in first year and they are there to support all of the other stuff just to help to allow you to settle in, to show you how to use the coffee machine to introduce you to other trainees. Just to have that support network around you.

Finally, you'll have a supervising solicitor who's there as more for the sort of Law Society requirements around quarterly review processes and just making sure that everything is working as it should be and that the experience that you're having, it is one that you should be as well. So yeah, that's the formal setup. I think what you tend to find is that you get a much broader informal support network in place, lots of colleagues in the teams will be there for you to ask questions and just to point you in the right direction. It is key that we have that support network from day one.

00:08:46 David Lee, Host

We've talked there about the formal support process. We've talked about the different seats, the different areas of law that trainees work in. What about that wider life of the firm? If you like, the different committees and groups that trainee solicitors can get involved in, what are the opportunities there?

00:09:08 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

There is plenty of opportunities to get involved in, more firmwide initiatives and we see this with the trainees all the time. They're always keen to get involved, and there's never a better time to network across the firm with these activities than when you're a trainee. So, we really encourage colleagues to get involved in things like the charities committee, social committee and colleague network groups. I rely heavily on the trainees to help support me with a lot of the school programs. So, trainees are delivering workshops to school students talking about their experiences through university and helping to share that knowledge as well. So yeah, there is definitely lots of opportunity to get involved in firmwide initiatives.

00:10:00 David Lee, Host

Do you find that trainees are coming in quite enthused about that, about not just doing the law, but getting involved in the wider life of the firm? Have you seen that over your time at Brodies?

00:10:11 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

Most definitely and again, it's just all about that personal development and that journey and a lot of things that you can get involved in are just helping to develop other skills. Baby steps into the world of networking and getting comfortable just speaking to people around the business and internal colleagues and it's all an important part of that development.

00:10:38 David Lee, Host

What about opportunities offered through secondments at that trainee stage?

00:10:45 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

We've seen some fantastic opportunities coming up with clients for secondments. They tend to be quite difficult to plan for. They're a little bit ad hoc in terms of when these requests come up and we are quite responsive to clients when they become available. But we have seen that experience of going out and sitting within a clients' legal team working well it's the absolute best way of developing commercial awareness and understanding what a clients' business looks like by being immersed in it. In more recent times, we've seen trainees going out to the BBC, so we actually did a swap with their trainee. Their trainee came in, our trainee went out to them, and we've done something similar with the Scottish Government. We have had one of our trainees out in our Abu Dhabi office and has gone on secondment to one of the clients out there. So yeah, they come in fairly regularly and there's always opportunity for trainees to apply for those if they wish.

00:11:54 David Lee, Host

Thanks very much, Wendy. There's clearly lots going on there. How many trainee positions are there, broadly speaking, in a typical year at Brodies? I'm guessing that the number of applications is quite significantly high and there's a lot of interest.

00:12:11 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

I'm not going to shy away from the fact that it is hugely competitive. It's not an easy journey to secure a traineeship for yourself, and you do need to be resilient and persevere and keep going with those applications. Our training intake varies slightly year on year, but it can be anything between about 25 and the biggest intake we have had is our trainees that start with us next month, there's 30 of them.

00:12:39 David Lee, Host

So, you're clearly getting a lot of applicants. Brodies is a very large, a very successful firm and a lot of young people want to work with you. How do you make the decision about which of those applicants have really got what it takes to really thrive and really bring something to Brodies?

00:13:01 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

I think the great thing about the recruitment model that we operate is that we are not recruiting to a mold, so we're not sitting with a checklist looking for a specific type of person to come and join the firm.

Usually on the application form and at interview, the question comes up about your unique selling point and that sometimes is a really important answer that you can give there that kind of just having a think about what makes you stand out, what makes you a little bit different from the other candidates and actually there's quite a lot of weight put on that answer through the whole process. So basically thinking about the core set of skills that are going to ultimately make you a great lawyer at the end of the day, what sort of skills do you think we're going to be looking for and really being able to demonstrate those skills and evidence them in some sort of way and that can be through part time, work, hobbies and interests, societies that you might be involved in. It’s sort of showcasing the skills that you think the firm or law firms are going to be looking for.

00:14:11 David Lee, Host

There's a lot of conversation these days, Wendy, about ensuring that all businesses not just legal businesses are diverse and offering equality of opportunity. How does Brodies ensure that there is that real range of diverse individuals coming into the firm? Bringing what you've just described there as their own qualities and their own personalities. How do you do that?

00:14:39 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

I think initially, we need to probably look at eliminating any bias so that we're not favouring any particular university or that we're not favouring any particular trend in a person. So, a lot of a time is spent making sure that our recruitment process is eliminating as much of that as possible.

Lots of personal information is taken from the application form before it is seen by an assessor, and that has been successful in terms of how much more varied, and we don't think we have any biases. But when you physically strip them away and don't allow them to take any part in this that you know that's a great way of doing it. Also, we do ask candidates to complete a separate questionnaire on social mobility, backgrounds and things, which is part of our application process and where students have had sort of a hard journey or a challenging journey, or perhaps they've done really, really well at school compared with the norm for that school then we're able we're able to identify those candidates and we're able to sometimes provide them with that next step in the journey that they might not have had. We're recognising difficulties and challenges and being able to present solutions for candidates that are in that position.

00:16:10 David Lee, Host

Tell us a little bit Wendy about the interview process, about the nuts and bolts, what are the different stages of interview and how does the assessment centre element of that work?

00:16:25 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

I don't want to say that we're old-fashioned but we do have quite traditional roots of recruitment. I'm sure there'll be loads of candidates out there listening to this that will be delighted to hear we're not psychometric testing. We're not doing recorded interviews over video and it is a colleague that's reading your application form. It's not an algorithm. There's no screening done through that process. If you are successful and you are able to or you're invited to join us for an assessment centre day, the requirements would be that you complete an interview with us, that you do a presentation and that you do a more sort of written assessment as well.

00:17:17 David Lee, Host

This might seem like an obvious question. You've touched on elements of it already in our chat, but what are the core qualities that Brodies is looking for in potential trainees at both the application and the interview stage?

00:17:38 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

That is a good question, the key thing for us is firstly to be self-motivated and driven because I think that is ultimately something that we can't teach you. It is the thing that you do have to bring to the table yourself. It's also a really great skill to have if you are organised and prepared. There is quite a bit of the assessment process where we are looking at you to evidence that. As a trainee, you need to manage workloads and demands and deadlines from different colleagues so that is really critical. Conduct and communication a big one, on a day-to-day basis, you could be speaking to colleagues, the core clients, a client with a lot of legal knowledge, a client with no legal knowledge, so being able to adapt your style of communication regularly to cope with that is key. Team working as always. The team within Brodies, a team within your trainees, a team within your practice area, you are joining a lot of teams when you start with us. Finally, commercial and profit-focused is recognising what makes a successful business. How important the client is and the client's business to us and being able to respond to that as well. That for me is the kind of key areas that we're focusing on over the recruit, the entirety of the recruitment process.

00:19:07 David Lee, Host

That's clear. What about a top tip for all those applicants looking to join Brodies? One thing that you mentioned earlier was thinking about your USP, thinking about what makes you stand out. But what are the top tips would you have for somebody who is interested in coming in and joining the team at Brodies?

00:19:31 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

I think one of the areas of misconceptions from students is probably that they feel that they need to have legal work experience and that is going to be important to us, in fact it's not at all. Before you get to the summer placement stage, we don't offer anything prior to that, so we can't expect you to come with legal work experience. And what you gain by shadowing somebody in a law firm for a couple of days is far outweighed by the experience you can bring having worked in Tesco for two years or at your local corner shop or your local cafe, so thinking about transferable skills is key. I'd say my top tip is don't get hung up on the legal work experience. Think about how you can bring to the table and demonstrate all of those skill by the activities that you're involved in and not only part time work, but a lot of kind of sporting activities or societies, you can bring a whole range of skills and demonstrate those from all different avenues of your life.

00:20:38 David Lee, Host

There's quite a big responsibility here, Wendy. You're right at the heart of selecting this next generation of Brodies leaders. Do you feel that's a big responsibility? What is it about the job that you do in seeing so many young people come into the firm? What do you enjoy most about it?

00:21:02 Wendy Murphy, Graduate Engagement Manager

It's a huge responsibility. There are so little places to offer such a huge pool of talent. There are loads of applications that we get that we just aren't able to meet with these people in terms of assessment centre places or to be able to offer them. I think you know it's recognising that that is the case, and I think, again, that message about perseverance and keeping going when you're looking for a traineeship is key and it will happen for you. You just must keep those numbers of applications up and just keep trying and don't get disheartened by the whole process. When we are successful, when we've recruited colleagues into the firm and I get the chance to see these trainees progress through their seats and eventually to qualification. Now I'm at the point where I've been with the firm so long that we have partners who were trainees when I first started, and that is fantastic. It is the highlight of my job to be able to see that progression and the success that they have from their careers. It can be a struggle initially, but when you get that position and you secure a traineeship then it is all good from there.

00:22:30 David Lee, Host

Thank you very much indeed to Wendy Murphy, Brodies graduate engagement manager, for her fantastic insights today into the application and interview process at Brodies.

This episode is part of the series Life at Brodies, where Brodies colleagues are sharing their perspectives and personal experiences of working at Scotland's largest law firm.

Wherever you are in your career, you can find out more about making your next step in your journey at brodies by visiting brodies.com/careers, and this episode is part of Podcast by Brodies, where leading lawyers and special guests share their Enlightened Thinking about the big issues and the latest developments across the legal sector and to hear more, please subscribe to Podcasts by Brodies on all your favourite podcast platforms.